SPEAKER_00 0:00

Because when you’re in a space, a headspace, where you don’t really feel comfortable showing up and and talking about yourself, or you’re not really excited to talk about yourself, then um you come across as guarded and you’re not able to focus as much because you’re like, oh, you know, like, oh, I hope they don’t ask this question, or something like that. That’s often a blocker for people in interviews, is they have one question that they really don’t want to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Hello and welcome to the 925 Wellness Podcast. Today, I have a super exciting topic that I’ve I’ve been wanting to talk about for a while on 9 to 5 wellness podcasts, and that is mastering workplace negotiations. And the reason I wanted to talk about this is because a lot of my clients and my patients who I work with, they have requested this. And here’s why. You know what? Most of the people tell me that they have the perfect resume, they have perfect metrics, like they’re completely flawless. And yet the moment they apply for a job or they’re sitting down in their boss’s office to go over their annual review, guess what? Their hands get sweaty, and all of a sudden their mind goes blank and they’re like, we don’t know what to say next. Like it’s all it’s almost like everything was perfect, they prepared for it, and then they don’t know. So today that’s exactly what we’re gonna talk about because pressure and nerves are completely, you know, they can completely derail a great candidate during an interview or an annual review meeting if you’re an employee already in the organization. So in this episode, I’m sitting down with a cognitive performance and career coach who does this for a living. And he’s gonna help us with a few questions that you guys asked me, like on how to perform during high-stakes meeting at work, how we can transform like dread and anxiety, which even I feel. If I am sitting across from my um manager, I feel that too. Especially we feel those before those conversations. And how can we switch that energy into useful energy? You will learn the neuroscience behind what triggers brilliant people to fumble, like I just fumbled, uh fumble like uneasy questions during annual reviews and and job interviews. So if you’re looking for actionable science fact strategies to perform under pressure at work, this podcast episode is for you. And without further ado, I want to introduce my guest today, Dave Bolovsky, is, and I think I butchered his last name, is a cognitive performance coach with a master’s in neuroscience and education from Columbia University. He helps professionals decide whether to stay or leave their job and to succeed in high-pressure moments like interviews, negotiations, and presentations. You can find him on LinkedIn or at effortwise.com. And we are gonna his information is in the show notes. Without further ado, Dave, welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Thank you. It’s good to be here. And uh obviously this is my favorite topic to uh talk about. So I’m glad we can do it today.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

Awesome. I’m super excited about our conversation because I host this podcast because I like to learn about these topics too. Because, yes, I’m as much as I would like to say that my clients are the ones who are experiencing that, but I experience the same dread, the same anxiety when I’m sitting across um, you know, a new client or an organization where I’m gonna be a consultant. So I want to explore negotiations at work and in business with you. What is the biggest mistake people make before the meeting even starts?

SPEAKER_00 4:43

So, yeah, I mean, it’s we can talk about like specific different types of situations, negotiations, interviews, presentations, or stuff like that. But I think when we talk about nerves, it kind of cuts through all of them. So it’s a good lens. And two things I think, you know, there’s two points of intervention to kind of improve like your performance. One is being less attached to the outcome of the event, right? Which means like you don’t want it so bad. And that’s really that’s the hard part because if it’s if it’s something you want, you know, it’s hard not to want it. Um, but the more obviously the more work you do beforehand, like uh looking for other options for things and um kind of, I mean, partly reminding yourself of like why uh you are worthy, you know, a lot of imposter syndrome, like overcoming that stuff. Again, that’s takes time to do that stuff, but that’s the work beforehand, so that when you get there, you’re like a little less uh just flustered about like, oh, you know, and anxious, do I get it? Do I not? And oh, if I don’t get it, then everything’s bad. Like that’s the work behind the scenes. Um, and it does take time. But then there’s the work like right before the moment, which you can also do, um, which involves things like uh mindfulness and basically just understanding your signature of nerves and anxiety and anticipation and befriending it and notice like accepting that it’s gonna happen no matter what for the rest of your life, whenever you go into a high-stakes moment. Because even if you’re like an expert at something, you are going to have times where you’re reaching for a higher level of something, and that’s going to feel intense and make you anxious, and you’re gonna get the same feeling of nerves that you’ve always gotten.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Yeah, so true. I just want to underscore what you said that it takes practice. It takes practice to detach yourself from the outcome, right? Because as you said, we all the reason we are feeling anxious is because we want it so bad. But how do you find that balance? And you put it just so beautifully that, you know, preparation is going to be a big aspect, a big part of it. Just building up on that, interviews often feel like a stressful interrogation rather than like a balanced two-way conversation, right? Uh what specific shift in mindset helps candidates treat the meeting as a mutual like evaluation of fit?

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Yeah, because ideally you want to walk into it and think like I am evaluating them as well as they’re evaluating me. And um, and really I would say also an ideal place to be is you’re happy to talk about yourself. Like that’s that’s the key, right? For networking and for uh interviews. Because when you’re in a space, a headspace where you don’t really feel comfortable showing up and and talking about yourself, or you’re not really excited to talk about yourself, then um you come across as guarded and you’re not able to focus as much because you’re like, oh, you know, like, oh, I hope they don’t ask this question or something like that. That’s often a blocker for people in interviews, is they have one question that they really don’t want to talk about. And a lot of work that I do with people for interviews is like, let’s talk about that, right? Let’s get to that question so that you can have a story that you feel comfortable telling. And that, because usually when you get into the details of the truth, you can find some way of explaining it that makes sense. Because, like, you know, most of our decisions in life, they make sense in context, but we’re afraid of, you know, oh, I don’t know how to explain it, or they’re not gonna see it the way I saw it, or something like that. So when you um clear that up inside you, and you’re just like, oh yeah, if they do ask this, I could answer it, then you show up differently altogether because you don’t have that one saying that you’re like trying to protect and hide.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That’s a great tip because honestly, I never placed it that way. Like that everything makes sense given the context, given what context it took place in. So if you could have that story ready in which the context is part of the approach you’re taking, or or whatever you have to present to the organization or to your boss about, then it’s like, oh, it completely makes sense. Like, you know, why would I guard it? Just like you said. And I think it it is a great way to balance the power dynamic in the room too, because often if you’re going for an annual review and or a job interview, guess what? We’re always thinking, well, they have more power. So I have to now present in a way that, you know, that I really want this. I want that job, or I want that promotion, or I want that increase in my pay. So are there any other practical techniques to just subtly balance the power dynamic?

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, for both of these examples, it’s kind of similar. And for negotiations in general, again, this goes back to the behind the scenes work, which is finding other options. It takes time, it’s hard, it’s stressful, but it is the only real way to make sure that when you show up, you don’t have that too much of like wanting it, right? And then what happens is that it is that power dynamic like is radically different where you’re if you don’t have any other options or you don’t have information about like where you stand and you don’t feel good about where you stand in general, then you’re always going to show up with more kind of neediness, urgency, and things like that. And again, that’s not that’s not easy, right? That’s that is the hard work. That is the substance of a job search or performance review, like promotion. That’s the work is is making sure that you are looking for other options. And that being said, if you don’t feel like you have other options, then you know, the the realistic assessment of where you are and and how you stand in in the state of things with this negotiation or interview, it’s important to be able to be realistic about that and not like, you know, if you try to come across as like, oh, I’m evaluating you as well, but the reality in your brain subconsciously is like, uh-oh, I hope I get this. It’s gonna come across as as arrogant and like overstated, overly uh sort of like like performative, you know. Absolutely. So yeah, so the the substance of the work is making sure that you’re you’re hustling to like get information, get other options. Yeah. Um and and honestly, though, some you know, like every every negotiation interview, whatever, is the start of a relationship or the continuing of a relationship. And so in many ways, it’s always a test of the other person. Do I want to be continue a relationship with this person? So when you negotiate, it it’s also a like a test. Do you, you know, where are you gonna get red flags? Are you going to you don’t because you don’t want to enter a situation where you start a job, for example, or you continue a job with a boss that that’s just gonna make your life horrible. Like it’s better to do the hustling and get the other options than to like let that happen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Absolutely. And I wanna just uh expand on a couple of things you just said that uh you should always be hustling and go in with a couple of options, like in your hand, right? I understand it’s not always possible, but you know, try to make that happen if you can. The other thing that you said, which is wonderful because I’ve come across so many people who took the job because their situation warranted that, you know, they should take the job, but then they just stayed there for three months and then they’re like, uh, this is not a good fit. And I’m not saying, you know, that don’t try and you know, trying and experimenting is part of it. However, to increase your chances of ending up in an organization where you’re a good fit, all of these things do come into play. Like, did you do the work beforehand, right? Did you have multiple options? Did you try to understand beforehand if this relationship is the relationship that you want to continue with this team, with this organization? So all good stuff, really. I and I don’t think so that when we are, especially if we are job hunting, there is a certain aspect of desperation there, uh which kind of takes over. But if we could give ourselves like a certain time period, like three to six months for job hunting, and then put all these practical tips that you shared, Dave, into practice, I think we would end up in an organization where we would like to stay long term.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Yeah. And actually, if I if I can continue with that, because I think that’s a really important point. And this is the people who really need the help the most are those who feel very desperate. And that is one of those stories that I have worked with people a lot on, which is why am I looking for so long? Like I hope they don’t ask me why I haven’t had a job for a year, right? And the the reality is, I have never worked with someone who is not doing something interesting or important without the job, right? They’re searching, but they’re doing something. And so, like, if you find that story that’s authentic to you and you enjoy talking about, um, it really changes everything because you you get these blinders in the desperation where you’re like, oh, I have nothing. And it’s really, I mean, I’ve never found it to be true, where someone is just doing nothing, right? They’re like, if you don’t have a job, you have time on your hands. So you’re probably doing something, you’re learning something, you are whatever, networking in different ways. And so that’s one thing, which is get clear on your story. But the other thing is the hustle itself. Uh, one of the most important things I that I have found personally in working with people is make the hustle easy. You have to, the ease of it is the only goal because the job search is so uncertain that it stops when you get lucky. And so you just have to keep going and survive the process long enough to get lucky.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Okay, I want to expand on that a little further. You said it stops when you get get lucky. What do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_00 16:34

I mean it’s so uncertain. Like the factors, you know, you you get an interview, you’re like, oh wow, I didn’t think I would get this, or whatever, and you get offers. It’s there, there’s the factors that are external to you that you don’t control are so many that you can only do so much, right? You can craft your stories well, you can apply, and you can talk to people. And that’s pretty much all you can do. And yes, if you if you do a lot of that, like it’s a numbers game. So what happens is eventually you get lucky, you hit the right moment at the right company or whatever, and you just have no idea. So the so a lot of people like don’t understand this. And it’s a very to me, it’s very clear and simple, and I’ve but I like have to explain it uh to everybody kind of a few times, is that ease of the process, the ability to continue is the only thing that matters. Because if you if you focus on too much quality and you like, like, all right, let’s just give an example. Let’s say you spend um three hours on one application, how likely are you to like when are you gonna be ready to apply again? If you spend three hours, right, you’re gonna be drained. You’re gonna be like, okay, this sucks. I can’t do this for six months. Are you kidding?

unknown 17:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

But what if you spent you know, 10 minutes on an application and three hours is like 180 minutes? So that’s 18 applications, and you did one of those a day, and you just like just focus on that. What happens is each application, um, if you spend 10 minutes on it, meaning you’re looking at it, you’re taking in information, you’re tweaking it a little bit, you’re gonna, the quality is going to go up incrementally.

unknown 18:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

And you’re not gonna get drained to the point where you’re like, I give up, I can’t keep doing this. Because that’s that’s the real problem is people just they sabotage by like forcing themselves to spend so much time on one application and then just being like, you know, God, I hope this works, because otherwise I can’t do anymore. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Yeah, exactly. No, I agree. I wholeheartedly agree with everything you just said. And thanks for, you know, just expanding that because it’s it’s a difficult process to grasp. A lot of times, as you just said, that we just are spending so much time and energy into one thing, then we are like, okay, how can it becomes harder to multiply that, right? So, and I think for anything which is hard or the outcome is worth it, but the process is hard. The just like you said, the whole goal should be to make it easier. So, you know, how can you have that resume ready, which you can just customize, you know, based on let’s say that you have three ideal job, you know, descriptions in your head, and maybe you have done the work to put them out on a Google Doc, then how do you just switch the resume from one to the other, or just have that um customized resume ready to go so you don’t have to spend that much time, right? It all depends upon how many tries. It’s like a trial and error process, how many times are you trying? So that’s a great way to put it. I love it. So I have a few questions that a lot of like my clients have asked, corporate clients have asked, and I’m gonna ask you those next. And they are related to salary negotiation. So one of the questions is from Phil, and Phil asked me, when is the best time to bring up salary in an interview?

SPEAKER_00 20:26

So for we’re talking about like for a new job, right? Yes, yeah. So um my philosophy uh, and whenever I do it and and work with people on it, is basically to take it slow and do it later. Because like often also it just depends. The company, sometimes the company will just say, This is the salary, are you okay with that in the first interview, right? And if that happens, it’s hard to negotiate after that. You kind of just have to decide. But if a company, you know, if and what that usually means, if they’re really clear, like this is the salary, take it or leave it, is that they they feel like they’re in a very strong position where they have a lot of applicants for for this job or a lot of the same role, similar roles. And yeah, and so in that case, you just assess. But if they don’t say anything in the beginning, then you don’t say anything in the beginning. That’s my general philosophy because your leverage is them wanting you. It just comes across as it doesn’t come across great, and it just you don’t have any power or like, or leverage, leverage meaning the ability to get them to want something in the very beginning, right? But after you’ve done a few interviews, maybe you’ve met your manager, maybe you’ve met their manager or the CEO or whatever, you have more leverage because you’ve started to create relationships.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

And so yeah, and you’re creating trust, you’re building trust, I mean.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Yeah, you’re building trust. Exactly. So if you feel like you are doing a good job in that and you feel that the the pay is like a little low for what I have made or whatever, it’s good to find a reason if you can. I actually posted on LinkedIn about this today.

SPEAKER_01 22:16

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Basically that the the three steps of communication that I recommend, especially just if you’re kind of don’t feel super strong, like you’re afraid of getting the job rescinded, the the offer rescinded, is just one is like affirm that yes, I really like this company. I like, I think I would do really good at this job, and I’m excited to do this job well. Two is at the same time, I do think it’s worth a little bit more. You know, it’s worth X more to do this job. Um, based on, and again, you could come up with like, I used to get paid this much for this role, or I’ve seen in my research other roles, or you don’t even need a reason. You can just say, I would like X more, you know? And you don’t really have to give a reason. And they will like it, that can even be stronger sometimes because they can’t refute it. But then, and then you end with basically like, but I understand that there are limitations and you let me know how much you can do more, and let’s find something that aligns with both of us.

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Absolutely. Absolutely. And sometimes it’s also in the multiple interviews or series of interviews, as you mentioned, you can each and every time you’re sitting across from the team or the managers or the boss or the CEO, you can be building up on what you have to offer. What are you bringing to the table? Because at the end of the day, that’s gonna decide your salary, right? What results are you gonna be able to bring into this organization with the work that you’re gonna perform? So every time you go, there should be something that you can add to the to what you’re offering. I think that always helps. I just wanna underscore you what you said, that if you could just delay the process or the bringing the number up. And I and I’ve seen a lot of people actually do it very early on where they are they are feeling the need to know what the number is gonna be. So then they they bring it up themselves, where where it should be the other way around, as you just explained to us. So great. Thanks for explaining that. Okay. The next question is from Jeff, and it’s about promotion strategies. Jeff said that requesting a promotion can easily trigger intense imposter syndrome, right? When he feels like he needs to be at its sharpest. Do you have any tips that you suggest to people in that situation who are dreading the conversation with their boss?

SPEAKER_00 24:56

There’s a lot of things you can do in terms of like building relationships and becoming that person who’s like your boss really values. And and that kind of all comes down to just seeing like what is their what’s their stress coming from, and how can I use my skills to like take some of their stress away. That’s generally, even though it seems obvious maybe to say, most people don’t think that way. They think in terms of doing their job well. And also, by the way, most people are so focused on how other people are not letting them do their job well, like, oh, this person’s getting my way, this person’s getting my way, right? So a lot of people spend so much time there. And, you know, yeah, I mean, if you’re trying to get promoted, there’s always an aspect of just like having to go above and beyond a little bit. And I mean, usually there is. So there’s there’s that. But then, and the more you can do that, the less imposter syndrome you’ll generally feel. But then on the other hand, there’s like I would again recommend just always be casually looking for other jobs because you that’s where you get a little bit of that feeling, like, oh, if this doesn’t work out, I’ll be okay. And, you know, you might be applying or you might not be. I would apply just for like go through the process so that when you if you do get laid off or you do decide to quit, you’re not like out of practice completely. And so I I don’t I go on job interview, I apply for jobs and go on interviews just myself to test things.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

And also to keep that’s a great way to do it.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Yeah, it’s like uh SAT tutors, they take the SAT themselves, right? Like you you just you you keep up with it. And it’s just especially if you’re in a good place, like that’s the best time to do it. And then yeah, you have less imposter syndrome if you know you have other options. So, you know, those two things are good. Yeah, and and yeah, so thinking about your belief.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

No, I think these two, if we just thought uh kept these two practical tips front and center before beforehand in most organizations and on most teams, people know when their a promotion interview or annual review is gonna come up. You know, they they know ahead of time. So that being said, if you can start doing that work three months ahead, figuring things out, like how you can best help your boss and the organization to bring results and then have some options in the back, you’ll be fine. I want to double-click on the first one though, because as you mentioned, a lot of us, we including me sometimes, we are not thinking in those terms, right? And I was listening to this podcast, and this professor, Emory University professor was on, and she’s like, I’ve been teaching MBA graduate students for years, and every year she picks like teaching assistants from her cohorts. And she said that I always have more applications than the positions for TAs. And she said that this one application stood out over her tenure 10 years at Emory. And she’s like, this applicant, she wrote to me that I understand that as a teaching assistant, my job is gonna be to help you grade papers. And I also understand that you are teaching four courses this semester, which means you have 600 students under you. So I would love to help you grade their papers and help with some extra work. And I’m I also know that you are part of this ABC research, which I would love to get just, you know, introduced to if you feel like once I’ve helped you grading those papers. And she’s like, all the other applicants they get it the other way around. They’re like, oh, so professor, how can we actually get into your research program? And she was like, this applicant got down to the fact that uh she understands how busy I am and how she’s gonna be able to help me and you know help me be more productive in my work. And then her second ask was okay, will I be able to get some time doing the research with you as well? Right? So I I believe exactly what you were saying, that a lot of times we’re just thinking, you know, it’s so hard to get the work accomplished, which we have on our to-do list. How can we even think about helping our boss or helping the department get ahead? But I think that’s where exactly that roadblock is or obstacle exists, where we have to reframe, reframe that question that, oh, start thinking of ways to make things smoother. And not only would they make them smoother and more productive for you, but for your whole team too. I think it that’s how it works. So how can team members and employees best quantify their workplace value in a yearly review meeting, which we kind of like just touched upon? And the reason I bring this up again is because a lot of people, especially women, female clients, they’re like, uh, that’s so like cringe. I can’t do it because I will sound so self-centered and boastful, and I don’t boost about myself. So what do you have to say about that?

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Mm-hmm. Yeah, there’s a lot here. First of all, I will just say that most of most of my clients are female, most of my clients are women, and yeah, and I don’t know why. I think it’s just my personality, I guess, but there is a difference, you know. You you kind of do have to approach it differently as a woman. But in terms of like quantifying stuff, the quick answer for like how you can present it is it goes both ways. You quantify stuff so that you can um show that you’re performing well, but you also quantify stuff so that the company knows whether you’re performing well. And so if you can frame it that way, you can say, you know, uh and by the way, I would recommend telling someone beforehand that you are doing this. It makes more sense like to do that, and then later be like, by the way, you know I quantify stuff about my work, right? Here’s what I have, right? Instead of at the last like minute, which a lot of people, that’s why it’s cringy, is if you’re like, hey, by the way, I have these like stats that I don’t even you don’t know about them. I don’t even know if you care about them or whatever. But that’s so that’s a good way to approach it, is is to be like, look, I would like to find ways to kind of quantify my work so that we are clear on like whether I’m doing well or not. You know, and that by the way, just that alone shows a ton of courage and confidence, which if you don’t have it, it’s hard to to do that, but you know, do that work a little bit first, get clear on your strengths, get clear on your story and stuff like that, and then be like, okay, hey boss, like I’m gonna start quantifying certain things. Here’s what I think makes sense for my like performance. What do you think? You know, so start beforehand and then later you have that. Yeah. But yeah, a lot of places these days will have their KPIs, right? So it’s kind of already baked into it for you. But yeah, like, you know, often startups kind of don’t as much, and and even corporate places, like they might not. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Yeah, no, that’s great. That’s awesome. That if you can just put it out there, what you’re about to say, and like set a little bit of an expectation, then people are expecting it. Like, you know, then then it doesn’t sound like you were self-centered, but yeah, numbers matter, like data matters. So I think everybody understands that in every organization. So just say that. Oh, I’d like to quantify, just like you said, or as you know, I I like to quantify. So this is what I’ve done in the last two quarters, and I just wanted to make sure that I present that in our meeting today. And they’re gonna be like, wow, great! Like this is awesome, right? We didn’t even have to ask for it, or we didn’t have to go through and look for those results ourselves and the on the back end. Like she she she was ready. Um, and there’s nothing like it’s not as cringy as we think, actually. People want that from you. So that’s that’s great. Okay, this question is from Rachel. What is your go-to strategy for recovering if a high-stakes answer goes like completely sideways? Because she she has been passed over for promotion like three times. And she’s like, every time I sit across, I think I just end up saying something wrong. She’s still in the organization because she believes that they’re a good fit, but the annual reviews are not going well.

unknown 34:45

Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 34:47

Yeah, I I don’t think the problem is the moment itself. I think if you’re really uh in my experience, digging into these kinds of situations, you it’s not like you said the wrong thing in that moment. It’s that the framing of your role. Yeah, the framing of your role and like within the organization is not right. And you need to look at that a little bit more and do one-on-one conversations with a few different people to build that story, make sure that you’re clear on like where do you sit really and why, not just like why am I not getting promoted, but why am I helpful? You know? And and that could be one way to ask at the end, like, you know, if it’s not, it’s like you can like establish why uh why are you still there, right? Like, what do they really value in you? And again, I would just go back if you’ve been passed over three times, I wouldn’t expect anything different than the fourth time. So I would start looking elsewhere, you know. I I don’t think there, I think also at three times, you’re probably feeling like trust has been broken in you. And so, like, it’s hard to come back from that too. Your work is not gonna be as good for them. You’re not gonna like really care as much, you’re not gonna trust them.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

I would just, you know, uh Yeah, start looking outside. That’s what I said to her. And I think I I if you don’t mind, we can just double-click a little more on this situation because I think it happens to a lot of people. And I’ve heard this over and over again, and I want your take on this. The biggest obstacle for her is her annual review is with the VP of the organization. Her she is directly reporting to a manager, and she’s like, you know, her day-to-day or whatever, like quarterly basis review is with the manager. I’m like, maybe you need to communicate more often with the VP. If if that’s what’s happening, you know, for your annual review, you’re sitting across from a different person. And she’s like, but I feel like my manager should be advocating for me. And I’m yeah, I’m like, I don’t know about that. Maybe you have to find a way, like, you know, why why that communication isn’t happening, and and maybe find a way to communicate more often with the VP. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 37:18

Mm-hmm. Yeah, both. I think, you know, find ways to yeah, directly show your wins to the VP. And again, find out, yeah, find out why they what stresses them out and how you can contribute to that in a way that they see more. And also have a conversation with the manager. What is your view of me and like in the team? And what do you think the VP thinks about our team? And you know, just kind of getting a whole lay of the land, like something is going on that’s that’s unclear to this person, and you you have to be willing to like find out what it is if you want to stay. And everyone, I think this is the actually goes back to like uh every problem as an adult is there’s always a layer of I shouldn’t have to do this. And if you get really caught in that, then you you don’t get what you want because you don’t have the the energy to go after it. Whereas people call it like ownership or something, but it’s like it’s like, oh, things I shouldn’t have to do this. My manager should be doing this. It’s like, yeah, yes, they should. Like a great manager does that. Your manager is not great, so you are now the one who has to do the thing.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Yeah. As the scene, coaching, like you have to remove the word should out of your vocabulary, right? That like that’s what the basis of coaching is like completely get rid of the word because it’s always gonna come back and haunt you in different ways. Because, yes, to the to your point, when we are saying should in any situation or for anything or any person, we’re kind of giving control to that person, control to that situation and removing ownership, right? So as much ownership as you take in that situation, the better it’s gonna be for you and you will understand it better. Once you understand it better, then you know exactly what you need to do, like the steps you need to take to get to that outcome that you want, right? If you’re overly reliant on this other person or another team to get that accomplished, guess what? I mean, you have to know what is going on and take ownership of it. So I that’s what how I see it. If you would like to add to it, go for it.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

Yeah. Well, I think your point was really subtle and really important, which is that every thing is about like learning. Like every step you take, every application you send out in the job search, you learn a little bit, you you change a little bit. And every conversation you have at a job that’s like around this topic where you’re trying to figure out what’s going on, how do I move up? You get that information. And the the cool thing about that is that everything you learn is not just applicable to your current situation, but for the future, right? So you may be in another job later where similar situation. And if you’ve gone through this process, you’ll be able to prevent what being passed over three times. And the way I like to say it is every big challenge prepares you for even bigger challenges in the future and makes smaller challenges in the future even smaller.

SPEAKER_01 40:45

Absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, those are such great words to actually kind of wrap it up. This was great. Thanks for sharing all the great tips on how to approach job interviews and workplace negotiations. Any parting words for our listeners?

SPEAKER_00 41:06

I guess just to summarize, I would say like when you are afraid of talking about some part of yourself, dig into that. You know, find the story, find the story that you are enjoy telling and practice that. And then you will open up more, talk to more people, and it’s always talking to more people that gets better things, right? Inside a company, outside a company. And it has to feel authentic. And feeling fake is one of the it’s just so hard. It doesn’t help. It doesn’t help you. Yeah. And then doing your work to get other options and stuff so that you, when the big moment comes, you’re a little bit more calm because you’re not, it’s not all or nothing.

SPEAKER_01 41:49

Absolutely. Absolutely. Figure out how you can present yourself as an authentic person, as an authentic human, and then at the same time continue the hustle, continue the work, really double down on the work because the more, the more shots you take, the more chances you have to score a slam dunk. So that’s great. That’s a great takeaway. Uh, Dave, where can our listeners and viewers find you and learn more about your work?

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Yeah. So I mean, I’m I’m on LinkedIn. I do have a small but growing YouTube and Instagram. Uh, they’re effortwise. It’s all effortwise now and effortwise.com. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:34

Amazing. So I’m gonna put the link to your website, effortwise.com and your social media and your LinkedIn account, so that everybody can learn more about your work. Thank you for joining us. And please send this interview to someone who you know is looking for a job and or their annual review is coming up. Just send this interview to someone because I think Dave gave us so many helpful practical tips, which we don’t think of ourselves because we’re just so in the thick of it. We’re like just so focused on the application process andor the work. If you’re within the organization, you’re like, oh no, this is the last quarter. I have to show certain KPIs. Like, I’m so down into it. I can’t think of the steps I need to take for my review. Just listening to this 40-minute conversation is gonna change the outcome of that interview for them. So please, please share it with someone. Maybe it’s you, maybe it’s somebody in your on your team, maybe it’s your sister, you know, your brothers, siblings, cousins. Please share it and send it out to them. Dave, once again, thank you so much for joining us. And to our viewers and listeners, thank you so much for joining us this afternoon and listening to us in a podcast format. Bye for now.

SPEAKER_00 44:03

Thank you.