SPEAKER_00 0:00

So a singular mismatch is never going to create burnout in somebody’s life. A compounding series of mismatches, however, will pile up. And they pile up slowly so that you don’t notice them and you don’t feel them and you don’t pay attention to them until the day you fall over in your office and crack your head on the side of the desk and end up in the hospital. Welcome to the Nine to Five Wellness Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Today, we are going to talk about burnout, which is an ongoing issue for the workforce. Let me tell you why. Because the other day I was just, you know, going through some data and research studies, and I came across this particular survey done by DHR Globe, which is a big name in global workforce, and their workforce trends report this is what it said 83% of surveyed employees and workers reported some level of burnout leading into 2026, like this year. It is that recent. Why most people blame chronic workplace stress and the type of work they do on burnout? Like they’re like, oh, that’s why we are burnt out. You know, it’s just we’re not built to or meant to do this work, or we’re just, you know, chronically stressed. That’s not the truth. Today we’re going to look at burnout through a different lens. And joining me on the podcast is the burnout expert herself, Kate Donovan. And I want to tell you about Kate, not only because she’s a friend of mine, but also because she has spent years telling people the truth about burnout. It’s not a personal failure. That’s how I used to think about it too. Like I overwork, you all know that, right? Yes. Okay. So then we know each other, which is good. But I always thought, ah, you know what? I’m exhausted. I’m so fatigued. I can’t go on anymore. And that’s because I’m failing. But the other day I was talking to Kate and she’s telling me it’s actually not that. And I’m like, so then what is it, Kate? And she’s like, it’s a mismatch problem. So I said, girl, I need to have you on the podcast. So she here she is. She is also a podcast host, and she’s the host of Fried, a top 1% podcast with over a million downloads. Author of the bounce back ability factor, and is currently writing mismatch. She has 4,100 five-star keynote speech reviews. That’s that’s like a big deal. It’s no small feat. I can tell you that as a speaker myself. I’m like right here, done. And that’s the only thing she’s good at. She has 99% approval rating. That’s huge. So you’re in for a treat. She’s the person organizations call when they’re finally ready to fix the real problem of burnout. Welcome to the podcast, Kate.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Thank you so much. I am so excited to be here. I can’t believe, gosh, how many years has it been since we did the first one?

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Yeah, I was a guest on your podcast when I wrote my first book, Unhunched. And that was early 2023. So three years. Oh. Yeah. Look at us go. Yeah. Look at this. I’m so glad. You know, positions are switched, which is great. I learned from you. I learned from the great. The greatest of the great. So I’m so glad, you know, we’re here again. And I’m super excited for your second book, but we’re not gonna talk about that yet. Okay. Okay, we’re gonna backtrack a little bit. I’m thinking of a busy professional right now, which is my main audience for this podcast, who just hits like who’s hitting play on this episode and wondering is this just a bad week? Or is it something deeper like going on with me or my work? Because I am too tired. What will this conversation help that person with? What will they figure out? So here’s what you need to know first.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

If you’re tired after a long week of work, that’s human and normal. If you’re tired after a normal week at work, and then you go home and you have your weekend and you get refreshed enough for Monday. Refreshed enough. You might not be dying to go back, but you are ready. And you go and you’re okay. And then you’re tired again by Friday. That’s just normal work. Yeah. That’s just normal. That’s that’s average. That does not mean you are burnt out on Friday and then healthy again on Monday. That’s not what’s happening. Burnout is when you get to a point where your recovery no longer works. So you could sleep away the whole weekend. You could take a week-long vacation, you could take a month-long FMLA or sabbatical, and you don’t feel any more restored than you did at the beginning of the month. So what we have to look at when we’re thinking, is it just a bad week? Is this just kind of a crap time, or is something more serious going on? The thing that we’re looking for is your level of recoverability. How well and how fast can you restore your energy? And if you can’t restore your energy, then we’re looking at a bigger problem.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Yeah, that’s a great way to actually define it and differentiate. Like, you know, okay, this is you’re tired. It’s pretty normal by Friday. You know, come Thursday. That’s why we are all looking for forward to Friday tomorrow, actually. We are recording this on a Thursday evening. And yeah, it’s pretty common, right? Because it’s a lot going on. You’ve already juggled a thousand things in the week, and now you’re looking forward to the weekend. Monday comes around, you’re like, okay, you know, I can take this again. Yeah.

unknown 6:42

Right.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

But versus you you probably slept as much as you could all weekend and you’re still like, I’m still exhausted.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Like, I don’t know. Yeah. Or you take a week, or you take longer. Yeah. The recovery from burnout on average is 12 to 18 months, but can be as long as three to five years. Wow. So we’re talking a long, significant portion of your life that will have to be committed to restoring your body, your health, and your energy.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

It’s a big commitment to decide, okay, I’m burnt out enough to stop and actually do something about it. You have to really be in this mode for much longer than you want to be. And I’ve had so many people over the years say, how can I optimize my burnout recovery? Yeah. I’m like, that word is why we got here. Can we stop maxing everything? Can we just not max everything all the time? We don’t need to optimize your recovery. We need to learn how to not optimize everything all the time. That’s how we got here.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Absolutely. So true. Yeah. Now we’re like longevity maxing and health maxing and oh. Just sit down, Susan. Yeah. Exactly. Take a deep breath. She actually told me to do that. The podcast. So, okay. Before we take a deep dive into reframing burnout, because that’s what I’m I’m excited about talking to you about today. Um, how do you actually define burnout? Someone who is still like having a hard time, doesn’t understand it, or has has come across the term but doesn’t really understand it quite well. Because I feel like it’s become such a like catch-all term for anything we just talked about, tired to completely depleted and unfulfilled. Like all of that is being thrown into the burnout bucket. So please help us understand what burnout exactly is.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

So if we’re going to talk about the definition of burnout, we have to start with the actual definition that we are given. And the definition is from the World Health Organization. It was defined at the end of May 2019, just in time for a global pandemic, folks. Right? Like I don’t know how they did that, but they were ready. So the World Health Organization decided at the end of May 2019 that burnout has three components. They are physical and emotional exhaustion, is one, which makes everybody kind of roll their eyes. Like we’re all tired. What are you talking about? Yeah, yeah. The second is cynicism and depersonalization. So you’re a little more negative than usual. You’re feeling separate from other people, you’re disconnected, you’re pulling away from your relationships, from your work. You’re you’re basically disengaging and quiet and quit quiet quitting life overall. Not just work, but life. Yeah. And then the third is noted different ways in different places, lack of productivity or lack of impact. So either you’re feeling like your productivity is going down, you’re not able to do the same amount that you were able to do before, or you’re not understanding the meaning behind your work. You don’t think your work is impactful. What you’re doing doesn’t matter for the world. Your life doesn’t have a lot of meaning. So there’s a kind of a deeper thread, a deeper vein that goes under that third one. For burnout to be present, all three of those must be present and persistent. So it doesn’t give us the it doesn’t give us a an exact time frame, but present and persistent. And then it says that burnout is not a medical diagnosis, but an occupational hazard. Okay, so tell me more about that. This is the part that makes me a little like twitch a little. I start getting glitchy about it. Because when they were defining burnout, and you can find articles that talk about this, the people that were involved in it wanted to be sure that the onus for fixing the burnout problem was on workplaces. So they created this definition as an occupational hazard in order to say, hey, workplaces, you’ve got to fix this. Like this is your problem. So it’s an organizational issue. So it’s an organizational issue according to the definition. My problem with that is that I have met plenty of people who have burned out as entrepreneurs, as caretakers, stay-at-home mothers, do all sorts of jobs that are not necessarily organizational. Right. When I burnt out and I was reading all of this research that said, you know, most of this is your job’s fault. That’s what most of the research said back in 2016 when I was, when I was reading it. And I thought, well, that is really bad news because like I’m sort of also the boss. Like I work for myself. So basically you’re saying I did this to myself based on my organizational decisions for this one person company that I’ve been running for, you know, 15 years or whatever it was at this time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:41

So you’re like, yeah, I mean, I still feel burnt out. So does that mean I’m not burnt out? Like, you know, just because I’m not in an organization?

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Right. So I disagree with that portion of it. And what we see happening now, there are other people that disagree with that portion of it, but we have to remember or no, but not remember for anybody that hasn’t spent the past 10 years reading burnout research. Sure. Burnout research from 1978 until 2016, 2017, 2018 was mostly done by social scientists.

SPEAKER_02 12:13

Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_00 12:14

This is so the social sciences, psychology, et cetera. Yeah. There was not up until that point a lot of research on how chronic stress affected the body. We didn’t even look at how chronic stress affects the body and women until 2003.

unknown 12:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

So we don’t, we didn’t have information to say chronic stress, when it lasts long enough, leads to X, Y, and Z things that we can now equate with burnout. And we’re still not saying that fully. No, we are not. We’re not saying that fully, but what we do see in August 2025, there was an FMRI study released, and it was two groups of people. One group was deemed to have burnout according to the Masslock Burnout Inventory, which is one of the measures that’s used to measure whether or not burnout is present. And the other was considered according to the Masslock Burnout Inventory, not burnt out. Okay. And they did measures of brain scans, basically. And what they saw was that the prefrontal cortex shrinks. So the part that sits right behind your brain shrinks. That part of your brain is responsible for, in my business, we call this adulting 101, but the rest of the research world would know it as executive functioning.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

And then your amygdala, which is responsible for checking to see whether you’re dang in danger or you’re safe and sort of igniting your stress response in order to keep you safe if you’re in danger. That part of your brain grows. Oh, wow. Right. So it becomes hypertrophic, hyper-vigilant, and hyperactive. So now you’re seeing danger where there is not, you’re engaging the stress response more frequently. And the front part of your brain, which is supposed to calm that part of your brain down with rationale. Yes. And decision making. Yeah. Yeah. Is not fully online. Yeah. Right. And on top of that, some of the roadways and networks that these two parts of the brain use to talk to one another are have like sinkholes in them. You know, if you’re on a highway, it would be like they have sinkholes. And you just cannot actually get to. Yeah. You can’t get the information from one thing to the other. And this is just the basics, right? There’s a lot more. I am not a neuroscientist. There are other people that know parts of this better and stronger and deeper than I do. But we know these three pieces. For years, I told people that also the hippocampus shrinks during burnout because we have so many memory issues with burnout. But here’s what we found in this study. Not we, I didn’t do it. They.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

The scientists.

SPEAKER_00 14:39

The scientists. In this study, they found that in PTSD and depressive brains, the hippocampus has shrunk, but in burnout brains, it was not. So now we have a differentiating factor on brain scans to say, yes, something is going on. Yes, it’s similar to other problems, but there is a differentiator here, which is something that could allow us to change the definition to a diagnosis in the future, because we would have a measure to say, hey, this is what a burnt-out brain looks like.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Yeah. Wonderful. I want to just underscore one of the things or the findings of the research research studies that the amygdala is now hyperactive. It hypertrophies. And uh that alone should make it a medical diagnosis, like, you know, an ICD9 uh code. Because I think that um I don’t think, but actually I want to expand on that, is that when you are in fight or flight mode, your other half of the nervous system, which is rest and digest system, now that has taken a backseat. Yeah. So when you are in burnout or fatigue, over overly fatigued, I can call it even if we don’t call it burnout, you’re just hypervigilant all the time. And a lot of the health issues, like chronic diseases that now we are recognizing, okay, type 2 diabetes, hypertension, uh cardiovascular disease, what we’re finding in those patients, they were always just hyperactive as far as their fight or flight system was concerned. Like they’re always hyperactive, like reactive, reactive, reactive. And over time, since our biology is not meant to stay in that hyperactive stress mode or fight or flight mode, we need a decent amount of rest and digest. There is good stress. I’m gonna tell you, and I I know Kate will tell you the same. There is a thing known as good stress, which actually makes us more motivated to, you know, pursue goals, go do stuff like for our kids, for our or save money for a vacation, like all of that. That is good, right? So that’s good stress. However, it’s like when you can’t shut it off, that is when it starts going towards that burnout. Um and that leads to, even if it wasn’t an ICD9 code, guess what? It leads to a lot of chronic health issues.

unknown 17:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

So let’s go back towards the work environment and how it’s related to our work and/or not. If burnout isn’t really an overwork issue, let’s just say that, which we have been talking about when we first texted each other. And a lot of research is kind of like starting to back it up, as you just mentioned, then what lens should we be looking at it through in, you know, instead of like a workplace issue, which we just touched upon, what should we be, you know, defining it as?

SPEAKER_00 18:05

What what is it then? So I don’t want to take anything away from the fact that workplaces are stressful and they need to improve some. So I think we have to leave that as an yes and portion of the conversation. Yeah. Because workplaces need more psychological safety and more accommodation and more support and and and so that’s and that’s not even a bad thing. This is the future of work. We are learning, we are shifting. We used we had the industrial revolution and we were working 16-hour days, and then we campaigned to get eight-hour days. This was, we got these eight-hour days of work because we fought for them, because we used to work double, right? So there’s the way that we work is always shifting throughout the course of history, and our needs as humans will shift a little bit based on current culture and how the world is functioning and things like that. So it’s not that evolution, yeah. Yeah, that’s just evolution. We’re shifting, we’re changing, that’s normal. And so, yes, there are things at work that are part of the story, absolutely 100%. They have been studied ad nauseum. There are whole books about them. They are half of my next book, so they matter, they’re not unimportant. But a couple of years ago, I was in a the back of an Uber. And I was talking to a man who was, I think he was 76 at the time, he said. Wow. And he was driving an Uber because he moved to, I was in Des Moines. I had just done some work with Morgan Stanley, and he was doing this because his kids moved to Des Moines. He wanted to be close to his grandchildren. His wife had passed, but he didn’t want to sit around and not do anything all day when his kids were at school or the grandchildren were at school and things like that. He wanted to stay active. He was like, it’s not because I need the money. I just I want to talk to people and keep myself out in the community instead of sitting at home. Yeah. And I was like, okay, cool. And I started to ask him about his life because I love people who are older than me. Yeah. They have so much to give and so much to teach. And much wisdom. Yeah. As he’s talking about his life, he’s telling me that, you know, he had this job for a while and it was going pretty well. And they started to have kids and la. And then he said, you know, and then it stopped being sort of the right fit for me. I was ready for something else. And so I shifted to the next thing. And then I did this next thing for a while. And then I met somebody and had the opportunity to start a business. So I did this business thing for a while. And we built that business for 20-something years, and it was wonderful. And then we got to the point where we weren’t going to pass it on to our children. Our children didn’t want it. So we went through this sale process and we sold it to this beautiful couple who now runs la la la. And then he said, and then I did this, and then I retired for a while. Then my wife passed, and now I’m Ubering. And he talked me through this pathway of, you know, 50 years of working.

unknown 20:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

That had zero touches with burnout. And when he asked me what I did, he said, Burnout, I don’t know what that is. Yeah. Right. I don’t, I don’t understand what you mean. Like what would I don’t get it. And that kicked off a series of interviews for me. When I started looking and saying, I’ve been talking to burnt out people for nearly a decade. What about the people that don’t burn out? Yeah, there are people out there. Right? Yeah, yeah. So what makes them different? Even if we’re at 83%, that means 17% are not burning out. So what are they doing differently? Here’s what I learned. When they feel like their life is misaligned, is mismatched, is off-center, is not working for them anymore. Instead of trying to pretzel themselves into the life they already have, they shift to whatever is coming next. Yeah. That’s it. That’s the major difference. They’re ready to pivot. They’re ready to do something different. They’re willing to take a bet on themselves. They’re willing to learn and try new things. They’re willing to stretch what’s possible. They’re willing to, but they are unwilling to keep themselves. Small and pretzeled into a situation that no longer fits them. Yeah. So then I started thinking about, okay, well, I’ve been talking to all these burnt out people for so long, and they are willing to pretzel themselves. And so why? Why are they willing to pretzel themselves? What is happening behind this? And that’s when we get into all of the lifestyle things that can be drivers for burnout. What? Lifestyle? Lifestyle growing up, attachment styles from childhood, childhood trauma. Okay, we need to unpack this. All this stuff. What? Yes. I had no idea. Okay. Okay. So how’s that playing into burnout? Right. So we’re going to start. My first degree is in Chinese medicine. So I was a practicing acupuncturist for 15 years or so. Wonderful. In addition, I have a degree in biobehavioral health, which is how stress affects the body through genetics, epigenetics, neuroscience, psychology, sociology, and more. So I have these two sides that I can play with, which is fun. Right. And I was looking at, because of myself, adverse childhood experiences, childhood trauma, being neglected, emotionally neglected, having a parent who’s an addict, growing up in poverty, having parents who are not present, all sorts of different things can add to what’s known as an ACES score. And the higher your ACEs score, I’m not familiar. So the ACE ACEs is adverse childhood experiences. And right now the score is, I think, up to 10. They’ll change it with time. So this by the time this comes out, it might already be different. Okay. And if you have a score of four or higher, it is very likely that you have brain development changes that were disadvantageous to you compared to people who don’t have high ACES scores.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Right. So your brain develops differently because of trauma. Yeah. Basically. And that’s not it. Not just brains, but behaviors and reactions and and all. Of course, the signals that our brain sends. Of course. Yeah. Of course. So this is kind of the classic story of maybe someone grew up in a lot of chaos. And as they grow up, they kind of need to incite chaos to feel safe because their nervous system only knows chaos from their childhood. Sure. Right. So there’s the connections, things like that. And I do that. It’s it can be a lot deeper than that. We could talk only about that for about six hours. But just suffice it to say that if you are someone who had a traumatic childhood, then your brain developed differently than other people. And there’s going to be a couple of things that that does that predisposes you to burnout. Number one, it makes you less prone to choosing health-promoting behaviors. Oh. So instead of exercising, you’re going to sit on the couch. Instead of choosing the lettuce, you’re going to choose the donut. Instead of it really affects your ability. So there’s a reason why people eat Doritos. There’s a reason. What? In addition to the science that Doritos have been, you know, using for years to make us addicted to Dr.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

Yeah, I was just going to say there are other reasons. I mean, there are other reasons. Like when we first reach for the bag, it’s because.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Not just because, right? Yeah, but you’re one group. But it could be one of the factors, right?

SPEAKER_01 25:12

So that and this is so interesting because I’m learning so much.

SPEAKER_00 25:16

Okay. So not only does it make us not prone to choosing health-promoting behaviors, but it makes us more prone to choosing health destructive behaviors. It makes us more prone to relationship destructive behaviors. Okay. And it also interferes with our ability to assess reward and effort. So there’s a part of our brains that grows, you know, normally during childhood, just like every other part of our brain, the most of the brain development up until nine or so, whatever. There’s a there’s a big growth period there. And that part of our brains, we stop to connect the fact that if we effort in something, then we will get the reward. So it can change how much we are willing to take a risk and put effort into something because we either believe or disbelieve that the reward is going to be worth it. It interrupts that that way. Right. So we have all these things from childhood that can affect how we behave later in life. For me, I have a four out of ten ACES score, which is just the very beginning of like not being good, right? So my parents did the best they could. You’re like borderline, yeah. Very close. You know, I I I have nothing, I’m not mad at them, I’m not blaming them for anything. And my father was an addict and went to rehab when I was six or seven. Got it. And so some of the behaviors that I drew from that experience are the lovely combination that so many of us carry, which is people pleasing hyperindependence and perfectionism. Right. I remember when my dad got home from rehab, I had this weird idea in my head. I don’t know where this came from. I was, you know, six or seven. So this is not logical, right? This is I was a child. I was thinking childlike thoughts. But I remember thinking that any of the mistakes that God had allotted my family, my father had already used up. Wow. So I didn’t choose to be, I wasn’t saying, oh, I have to be perfect. I was saying I can’t make a mistake. Yeah. I can’t do anything wrong. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, yeah. Right? That, of course, is not logical, but then you engage with perfectionism as a child or whatever other behavior, right? And it works for you. You get good grades, so you get praise. I was a gymnast, so that worked for me as a gymnast. I finished 12 out of 600 kids in my high school class. I got almost a full scholarship to Boston University, which is a very good school. Yeah. Right. All these things that the perfectionism was working for me until I was an adult and there was nobody left to grade me.

SPEAKER_01 27:48

And then you’re like, how do I get validated, right? How do I get validated? Yes. At the end of the day, like I was actually listening to a podcast kind of related to this top, this particular topic, uh, where they were saying that every behavior or every action that we take is actually results driven from the past, of course. So that’s exactly what you’re saying. Like you had this trajectory in your childhood where you’re like, okay, if I, you know, if I’m a good gymnast, I get good grades. My parents are super happy with me. You know, that’s how I make everyone happy. So I have to be perfect. And then all of a sudden you’re like, I don’t know, 22, 23, and you’re like, what do I do now?

SPEAKER_00 28:33

What do I do now? And what happens is, and here’s where another space where we can draw a line in the sand, when your coping mechanisms require you to self-abandon, they are no longer helping you cope. So if engaging with your perfectionism means that you have to give up sleep, rest, comfort, connection, the ability to go to the bathroom, if you need to write three more emails instead of go pee, that’s up to you. Yeah, I mean, yes, I know people who do that. Yeah, there’s a there’s a reason that the unofficial hashtag of my podcast is pee when you need to pee. Yeah, we’re gonna talk about that too. Now I get it. I’m right, coach. Because this is really common, and so many of us do this. So if your perfectionism or hyperindependence or people pleasing has turned into self-neglect, we now have a problem. On top of all of that, there’s another part of the brain that doesn’t develop properly if there’s a lot of chaos in your childhood, and or doesn’t develop properly because you were more tuned in to your parents’ and or your caregivers’ needs than your own, which meant your parents, not out of any malice, did not know how to help you connect with your emotions. You might have heard a lot of don’t cry and you know, all of that. Yeah, yeah. Which is totally normal, right? I was born in 1982. We didn’t know any of this stuff back then. People did the best they could with what they had. It is what it is. Yeah. We’re gonna mess up our kids different ways. That also is what it is. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 30:07

I was actually listening to Oprah the other day, and she was saying on her podcast that back in the day when she was growing up, the only way parents showed love was to provide for you. Yeah. And that was that was the form of love, and that’s what she didn’t feel like where she didn’t feel loved. However, but she never placed it like, okay, but that was all my parents could do. Yes, you know.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Right. That’s all they knew. And that’s okay. So again, like I’m not blaming any parents. I’m not, that’s not the point. The point is if you were not taught how to listen to your body and your own responses, yeah, there’s a certain part of your brain that does not kind of really grow enough. And then a certain neuroskill called interoception, which means your own ability to read internally the signals that are happening in your body. Internal perception, in right, internal perception, internal sensing. Yeah. So then we have people. So let’s just imagine that you have someone who is going through the world of work and they’re doing the best they can, and maybe they have some people-pleasing behaviors, and they’re going home and they’re not exercising or taking care of themselves because they were never taught to do that, and it wasn’t part of how they grew up. And so they might have a park across the street, but they never use it because they don’t know how important it is. They weren’t given that information. And then on top of all of that, they have a jerk jerk for a boss at work, and they’re in a role that doesn’t really align with who they are, and they’re asked to do something that they are either over or under skilled for, either way, is a problem. Sure. And all of that is happening. There’s mismatches from every direction, from childhood, from work, from lifestyle, from everything. And the part of your brain that’s supposed to tell you that your stress is building up, that you’re not feeling as good as you should, that your emotions are going haywire, you don’t really have access to.

SPEAKER_03 32:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

So over the years, one of the things that I heard most commonly from burnt-out people was that they felt ashamed that they didn’t notice until there was like a straw that broke the camel’s back, sort of situation. Yeah. And I thought, honey, your brain wasn’t designed to notice. That’s not your fault that you didn’t notice. You were not taught to notice. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So we have to part of the recovery process and part of why it takes so long is because we have to reinstate that skill. You have to pee when you need to pee. You need to drink when you’re thirsty. You need to rest when you’re tired. You need to connect when you’re lonely. You need to eat when you’re hungry. You need to move when you’re antsy. The very, very basics. People are out here talking about self-care. Yes, I love self-care. Go for a walk in the forest if you yes, and and take a bubble bath and get a pedicure. All of those things count if they feel good to you. Yeah. But like, are you peeing when you need to pee? Yeah. Can we do that? Can we get that done? Yeah. Once you start to rebuild that skill, the other thing that gets more prominent is your ability to read into your emotions. So instead of saying, oh, I’m stressed or overwhelmed, you’ll be able to notice, oh, I’m actually really angry, or there’s grief under that anger, or I’m feeling resentful about this. You get m more emotionally granular, is what it’s called in the emotional intelligence world, right? You get more specific about what you’re feeling, which means you’re more likely to be able to solve it. Yes. Right? So, like all of these things are connected.

SPEAKER_02 33:52

So true.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

I just love how you explain this because I would have never placed like burnout to just like the ACE score and the childhood um trauma and and also the patterns like we develop. I think it it comes comes down to patterns. It’s not a lot to do with trauma, you know, um, because we are not talking about therapy over here, but just not taking care of your needs. The basic ones. Basic ones, the simple ones. Yeah. And um it’s funny because the other day I was talking to an a friend and I was like, I think you should give yourself more grace. Yeah. If we just start there, a lot of this then starts like you know, falling into place because she was just saying something, and all of a sudden I caught her that she said like a negative sentence about herself. And I’m like, why would you say something like that about yourself? Like, would you ever say that to anybody else? Would you ever say that to me? And she’s like, no. And I’m like, the first person who needs to love you is you. Why would you say that? And she’s one of the persons who’s like just overworked, overactive, like she has to do it all.

SPEAKER_02 35:20

Yeah. And I’m like, I think you know what?

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Some grace. Brittany, you should start giving yourself some grace. There is no part of burnout recovery that happens without grace and compassion. Right? There’s no part, not one part. To to ourselves. Yeah, you know. To ourselves. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:38

Exactly. So true. So true. But I I don’t think so. Like we put put it together like that. So two plus two is equal to four. We don’t we don’t see it like that.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

No, even when we have people like Kristen Neff, who’s the world’s you know, foremost scholar of self-compassion, telling us for the past she’s written two two major books that have been out for a long time. And we have this information. We know we know these things to be true. Yeah, I mean it’s out there. Yeah, it’s out there. Yeah. But we still don’t do it. Self-compassion is a is a is a complicated act. Because underneath that, if you’re going to engage in self-compassion, you have to believe that you deserve it.

SPEAKER_02 36:20

Yeah. That’s hard. Isn’t it?

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Deservedness is a hard thing to feel.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Yes. Especially for ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:29

We would give it to others and we won’t. Of course.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Girl, you deserve it. Easy to say.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Hard to feel. Yeah. So true. So true.

SPEAKER_01 36:41

So I want to tie this into your theme, which actually started our conversation. The mismatch.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

What is the mismatch? What are the mismatches? Oh, there are more than one. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

So there tell me. Let’s talk about those. So a singular mismatch is never going to create burnout in somebody’s life. A compounding series of mismatches, however, will pile up. And they pile up slowly so that you don’t notice them and you don’t feel them and you don’t pay attention to them until the day you fall over in your office and crack your head on the side of the desk and end up in the hospital. That’s what happened to Ariana Huffington, right? Yeah. Yeah. With her burnout story. Yes. And so when I was about back in school doing the biobehavioral health degree, I was doing a class, an epidemiology class. And in that class, we came across this concept called the web of causation. And it was basically saying, like, you know, for a while doctors were saying diabetes type two is because you eat too much sugar during your life. And then as an adult, you develop diabetes type two. Yeah. And then they started looking more deeply into the social determinants of health and other factors. And they were saying, well, if you have high ACES scores, or you um didn’t grow up in a place that has that you had access to any green space, or you grew up in poverty, or you don’t have access, you live in a food desert, so you don’t have enough access to fresh and unprocessed foods, and you blah, blah, blah, blah. And they found out that it’s not just sugar, it’s sugar and all these other things.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

Yeah, because you know, I just want to add something to it, not just uh stop you, but because your cells, like we are a combination of ourselves. Like, you know, of course, yeah. So every cell in your body is impacted by all these factors, which you just laid out. Exactly. Environment, food, you know, having green greenery around you because you need oxygen.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

Yeah. And yeah. All of those things. Yeah. So that was started to be called a web of causation, and they started applying it to all different different disease processes. Sure. I wrote the web of causation for burnout. Wow. It didn’t exist before. So I wrote the web of causation for burnout. It has six buckets. The workplace is one of them.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

Right? The family is one of them. The culture that you live in plus the culture that you’re from. So I grew up in a place where most of my friends were not American. If they are American, they were born here, but they were first generation Americans. So they were growing up in their home culture and the American culture at the same time. It was a combination. Right. So we have the workplace, we have family, we have culture, the environment that you’re in, that you live in, whether or not you’re in a beautiful space when you work, things like that. All of that matters. Your health. So any sort of genetic predispositions and things like that. If you have mental health disorders, chronic diseases, autoimmune diseases, you’re going to be more prone to burnout that just there for all sorts of different reasons. And then your traits and states slash coping mechanisms is a whole bucket. All of these behaviors and patterns that we were talking about before that encourage you to override your own needs. Yeah. They can so in all of those areas, there are mismatches. Yeah. And here’s the thing that I think is most important. Mismatches are inherently morally neutral. So mismatches are not, we’re not judging a mismatch as good or bad. Okay. We’re not saying somebody is at fault. We’re not picking a victim and a villain. We’re not doing any of that. Okay. They’re simply saying this is not a good match for who you are and what you need. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

This is not a good one. Yeah, what you’re saying is like this workplace or this department, it could work really well for Dave. Yeah. But for you, you know, you might want to look at another department within the organization, it could be like, you know, or another team member to work with. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

So when we’re looking at the workplace mismatches, they’re broken down into six categories within them. The first one is workload. This is the one everybody talks about first when it comes to burnout, until they hear that there’s like 77 other mismatches you can have, right? But the workload in the workplace has a multiple mismatches within it. So it’s not that too many hours equals bad. There is a certain degree of if you are over 45 and working 55 hours or more a week, you have a higher predisposition to stroke, heart attack, cardiovascular issues, et cetera, et cetera. So that one we know that’s a that’s a like a higher-end measure that we can say we know this is a problem. Aside from that, you could be working 25 hours a week in burnout. The hours are not is not the problem necessarily if they’re not a mismatch for you. If you’re 23 years old and you’re working 47 hours a week and you’re loving life and partying on the weekends, and it doesn’t matter, you’re fine. Yeah, you’re fine. You’re fine. Yeah. That’s not a mismatch for you. No. But if you are 47 and you have three young children and a parent that broke a hip last week, yeah, that you’re caring for, and one of your kids wakes up and starts puking, and another one of your kids is going through cancer treatments, and you don’t have 47 hours a week when you’re 47 and you have all those things going on. No, you just don’t have it. No, you don’t. Right. So your matches will shift across your lifespan for different reasons through different seasons. And that’s fine. That’s why when I talk to all these people who didn’t burn out, they were like, well, that wasn’t working for me anymore. So I did this other thing over here. Yeah. Right? They were willing to shift. So mismatches can be workload, but what that means for you is different from what it means for somebody else. In within workload, it can also be being over or under skilled. So maybe you got a promotion, but you didn’t get the training to support you in that promotion. Yeah. That’s a mismatch. And here’s the thing: should your work provide that training? Yes. Do they 100% know that you need it? Not necessarily. No. This needs to be a middle-out approach. This is not top-down or bottom-up. This is you saying, hey, in order to do this job really well, I need to advocate for some learning. I need to, I need to go to a course. I need to be taught. I need something to do this well because I don’t know how to do it. But if you are a hyper-independent, people-pleasing perfectionist, you are very unlikely to say that.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

I was just gonna say that it ties into our childhood or personality type, what we call uh because that is what makes it very hard to bring it up.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

Right?

SPEAKER_00 43:20

Exactly. So this will be this could be a mismatch that could be maybe easily fixed, but that you’re tolerating out of fear of saying something. Yeah.

unknown 43:29

Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:29

So yes, the work should workplaces be aware of that? Yes. But they don’t know if they you lied in your interview. Like they’re and now you’re like, how do I bring it out? It’s like, oh yeah. There’s this course on LinkedIn learning. Do I have access to that? You know, right? There’s this idea for me that mismatch again is inherently neutral. It’s not, we don’t have to pick a villain or a victim. We just have to look at it and say, hey, this isn’t a good fit for me right now. And how can I bring it closer to something that works for me?

SPEAKER_01 44:03

Yeah. So true. So true. I I just love this. I love the example you gave to like, oh, okay, maybe it’s just that you need more skills. And everybody can learn at any time in their life, right? Yeah. My whole goal for this podcast, actually, the reason I host this podcast is I’m just curious. I’m like a naturally curious person. And I’m like, this satisfies that part of me. Right. Right. So I like learning. And I’m like, oh, every day, every time I have a conversation, I take away so many tools for myself, for my kids, you know? Yeah. It’s, it’s, it, it helps me. I want to shift the focus from employees to leaders. And I’m going to tell you why, because I want to get practical for a second here for leadership. I work with a lot of executives. And what I am hearing from them is that a lot of leaders, they tell me, I want to do right by my team. I want to do right by my organization. I wouldn’t have taken this role if if that isn’t what I wanted. Like, you know, I’m not selfish. Like, you know, I’m hearing this again and again. And they’re under stress. Okay. The reason it comes up in my conversation, because I’m working in healthcare, but they’re like, you know, I’m just stressed out. I I don’t feel like I can take care of myself when I am under this much stress and I have trouble sleeping at night because of this. And I’m like, then maybe that’s what we need to fix first. Let’s let’s talk about it. Let’s talk talk about how we can fix that first, right? So I’d love to know what should leaders know to look for in their team members, in their people regarding burnout and disengagement? Because I don’t think whenever I have this conversation with them, they’re not going there. They’re still stuck with I am not sure why it’s not working out because I have tried my best.

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Okay. So there’s a couple different questions in there. Sure. Let’s unpack it. Right. The first is what is leader’s job? Right. If if you’re a people leader, what is your role when it comes to other people’s burnout? Are you supposed to be the one noticing it? Are they supposed to be the one noticing it? Like whose job is that? And here’s the thing a lot of us that burn out are high performers that are gonna hide this from you so well. Yeah. That you are not gonna find it. Yeah. So to me, there’s the reason that I wrote the book the way that I did, in throughout the book, we’ll go say, here are all the mismatches. Here’s how they look in the workplaces, silently and not silently, right? So if they’re out loud or if they’re silent, this is how they show up. Leaders, in this space, this is what your job is. Individual person, employee, individual contributor, team member, whatever you want to call it. This is your job in this space. Every single mismatch has something for the leader to do and has something for the individual to do. So everybody always has a job, just to be clear.

SPEAKER_01 47:19

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 47:19

Right? Both sides always have a job. Yeah. Individual. It’s not a one-sided equation. No. But leaders right now are in this very awkward time where they are meant to be therapists and empathetic and know their people and also meet their KPIs and do like there’s a lot of pressure on leaders. And like you, the leaders that I talk to want to do the right thing. That’s why the subtitle of mismatch is why good people burn out in good organizations. Yeah. When everything is well intended, why are people still falling apart? And so, what I want leaders and individuals to pay attention to most, there is one emotion that will always tell us that a mismatch is happening every single time we feel it. Yeah. Just one. You ready? Yes. Resentment. Yes. Resentment will always tell you that there’s a mismatch happening. What it will not tell you is if that mismatch is on a structural level, there’s something that’s not quite built the way that it needs to be built for you. Sure. If it’s on a relational level, you don’t get along with your boss, or maybe you have a different set of values than they have, which is totally normal because you’re two different humans. Yeah. Or whether it’s on the personal level, because it’s some stuff like you agreed to do 18 things that you didn’t ever actually want to do and now you’re stuck doing them, but you volunteered, you volunteered yourself. So now you’re stuck doing them. Yeah. So, or is it a combination of those three? Yeah. But resentment will at least clue you in to something being mismatched. Yeah. So when you see resentment or feel resentment, first as a leader, you can feel that in yourself. And you’ll start to notice where things are a little bit off for you. Yeah. When you start paying attention to it for yourself, you will start to see it when it pops up in other people too, because they start to throw out passive-aggressive comments. They start to get a little more negative, they change the way they answer emails. Things get a little short, as per my last email.

unknown 49:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:22

Kind of stuff. If you understand resentment within yourself and you pay enough attention to it, you will see it in your people, and it will give you the clue that you need every time to address something before it becomes a massive problem.

SPEAKER_01 49:38

I’m so glad that you brought up some of the signs of resentment because I think it’s a very hard emotion to like place, even for yourself, if you’re feeling it, or for others, like your team members, uh, to identify. I I should say that’s the word I was looking for, to identify in a workplace setting. I think it’s a little easier in you know home relationships because you kind of like understand like why why certain things are happening. But at work, you’re like, you’re a little lost. But I love how you just gave examples of, oh, notice the email, like, you know, what’s the language, the passive-aggressive comments, which is very common in workplace. Like, I’m so surprised like you said that because I’ve been noticing that. And I’m like, that’s so common.

SPEAKER_00 50:34

It’s so common, and we are not treating it as the signal that it is. No. When every time Sheila has to do this intake form, she complains that no one ever made the index the intake form into a fill-inable PDF or something. You know, like there’s part of the process that’s just not working well. Of course. Yeah. Like, why are we not paying attention to the fact that she’s complained about it 18 times? This is in the book when we’re talking, when I’m talking to the individual contributors, I’m saying your job when something is wrong like this is to make it obvious instead of make it passive aggressive. If you have something that you know needs to be fixed, make a clear request for the thing that you know needs fixing. Because by being passive aggressive, you are dropping hints that clearly other people are not picking up. No. So say the thing out loud. Like say the thing clearly. And you don’t need to, again, people often assume malice in situations like this. They’re assuming malintent. And oftentimes it’s just oversight. Oftentimes it’s just something that got missed. Like it’s just something that nobody else cares about because they’re not involved in the process the same way that you are. I had to fill out, you know, you before you go to a healthcare appointment, you have to fill out all your information. Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:49

And those are long forms.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

And you have to fill it out every single time you go. And you’re like, I was just here three days ago. And you, I have to tell you, right in my 1999 like ovarian cyst surgery that I’ve told you about 87 times, it hasn’t changed. I didn’t go back to 1999 and shift it. Like it’s still the same one. It’s so annoying to fill out all those forms. Yeah. And last time, a couple of maybe it was about a year ago, I filled them in and I got a screen at the end of it that said, Thanks for filling this out. You will not have to do this again at the doctor’s office. And I was like, Okay, wonderful. I won’t have to do it again. They changed the system. Yeah. And then I walk into the doctor’s office and they hand me a set of forms. And I was like, it literally told me on the computer that I was never gonna have to do this again.

SPEAKER_03 52:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

And the woman at the front desk said to me, I don’t know why it works like this, but we don’t actually receive your answers to those questions until after we close out your appointment. Who is it helping? Yeah. And front desk have probably been throwing around passive-aggressive comments about this for years. Yeah. And resentment builds and stress builds, and every time a front desk person hears, why don’t I have to fill this out again? They are at on their last nerve. Their nerves are sitting right here at the surface of their skin and they’re ready to like pop somebody. Yeah. And it’s not their it’s not the person’s fault that they’re annoyed because they were just told on the computer that they weren’t gonna have to do this again. Yeah, that’s their job. Yeah, yeah. So it’s moments like that, spaces like that, where if leaders can pay attention to where those little like side comments keep popping up, if you can fix those things, if you can ease that friction, if you can lessen that cognitive load for everybody on your team, everybody’s stress level goes down, everybody’s ability to communicate goes up. Yeah. And everybody becomes more productive. Sure.

SPEAKER_01 53:43

Yeah, no, it’s so true. And I also feel like what you just touched upon, and I want to underscore it a little bit over here, that a lot of times, like just like the receptionist at the medical office, she has to deal with this day in, day out, probably for 50 patients a day. At least, probably 200. The rest of the team, they don’t have to. Exactly. So their level of understanding of that problem is so different than what she has to deal with. This is her mismatch. Yes. It’s not everybody’s mismatch. No. But until until and unless she decides, okay, I should bring this up in some way or form, at least maybe it’s not fixable right away. It’s it’s possible, right? Because if it’s a system like they’re on an EMR and whatnot, I mean they have to abide by it and what right not. But they can at least start taking some steps towards making it better internally.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

Yes, like taking down that last screen that tells you you’re not gonna have to do it again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:51

If you just eliminate that, or just pulling up the history forms of the patient from last year and just, you know, attaching those to the forms. Like just update what has changed and we will just scan all of this together.

SPEAKER_00 55:04

And there’s also the potential to get patients involved, right? This we’re solving a problem that we’re not gonna solve right now, but this is just an example. Yeah. So if that that patient says that, if that receptionist sees another patient say that, maybe she has a form that she says, there’s a thing that says, please sign here if you’ve been told this and this, and that it became frustrating for you. And the more signatures I collect, the more likely I am going to be able to present this to my superiors in a way that’s saying this is negatively affecting our patient visits. This is negatively affecting the way that patients feel by the time they see the doctor. So the patient-doctor interactions are getting worse. So then patients are forgetting to say things that are bothering them, and then they have to come back. And then and then and then it’s creating all these downstream problems. Absolutely. And I have 400 patients that told me this is a problem. That is so true.

SPEAKER_01 55:54

So true. A lot of times it’s not being brought up because the person feels like they don’t have enough power. They don’t have enough data to show or back this up. So that’s a great example of like how you can’t get gathered in this situation. And of course, there are different situations and different things, but at least bringing it up would start the conversation, even if it doesn’t get fixed right away. Yeah. It would bring it to the awareness of the leadership because that again, the leader is trying to do a lot of like mind reading, which is hard. Okay, so you have already given us like so much to think about, like seriously, in terms of how mismatch shows up. It could even be something not related to your work. It could be relational, it could be at home, it could be a thousand different things. So building on that, why don’t you fully believe in burnout prevention? And I know we have had this conversation a few times. Tell our audience members why not?

SPEAKER_00 56:59

So if we look at the people that burn out most frequently and the fact that there is a correlation between their introsceptive skills that we talked about before, and their propensity to burnout.

SPEAKER_03 57:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:14

Right. If they are not aware of what’s happening in their bodies, how are they going to prevent something from getting worse that they don’t feel? And then we have people coming into workplaces and talking about burnout prevention, and they’re all smiley and they’re like, Yeah, yeah. If you breathe better and breath work and yoga and yay, and everybody in the audience is like, Well, this is for somebody else because I don’t need this. Yeah. They think it’s not for them. They think it’s not about them. The people that need it most will ignore all of that advice every single time because they’re making it about them. It’s a mismatch. Once you start seeing mismatches, you’ll find them everywhere. Yeah. You’ll see it everywhere. Every time somebody brings up a problem, you’re like, Yeah, but that’s a mismatch. Like here’s how we make it better. Or here’s other things we can make better so that we can tolerate that mismatch. Like in the book, I write very frequently, we’re not aiming for perfect matches. I control so much of my life. I do not have children. I have a happy marriage. I own my own business. I control who I work with. I say no to projects I don’t want. You’re stopping life. And I still say now I know your secret and I feel why you’re not burnt up anymore. And I I still am not a perfect match. What we are going for as humans, and this is really hard for the perfectionists out there. So please like don’t hate me for this perfectionist. But we are going for a C’s, get degrees, 75%, sort of mostly pretty good match. That’s what we’re going for. Sort of mostly pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 58:45

But that’s not how we operate, like the high achievers.

SPEAKER_00 58:49

I have learned, I have learned that some mismatches are not fixable. Some of them you cannot influence. So you have to work with those emotions in a different way, maybe get some therapy support, some somatic support, have an acupuncturist do whatever it is that you do. Yeah. Some mismatches you’re not going to be able to fix.

SPEAKER_03 59:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:11

And that’s okay. You have to concentrate on fixing all of the ones you can so that you buy yourself enough energy and resilience to deal with the ones that you can’t.

SPEAKER_02 59:22

Yeah. So true. So true.

SPEAKER_00 59:25

If you have a parent who has Alzheimer’s right now and you are their caregiver, their primary caregiver, there’s not a lot you’re going to change about that situation. Can you do some prospective and springs at work and things like that? Yeah, but like it’s heartbreaking, and you’re in grief already, and they’re still alive, and there’s all these different components to it.

unknown 59:47

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 59:48

That’s a mismatch that you’re not gonna fix.

SPEAKER_01 59:52

Yeah, you’re not gonna fix it. It’s gonna take some time. Yeah, you have to you have to ride that storm first. Yeah. Give yourself grace at the same time. Yeah. And I want to get back to that because I think at the core of all of this is where we’re not um introspective, like as you mentioned, like you were.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:12

In not introspective, we don’t have interoception. So in being introspective and having interoception are different.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:17

Interoception. And we’re not giving ourselves grace. So you know that that tagline of yours, pee when you need to pee. Yeah, right? Yeah. That is probably the best advice.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:33

Yeah. There’s a reason it became popular with the podcast. I actually had a podcast listener hand stitch me a quilt that says hashtag pee when you need to pee on it. That’s how strong this message hit people. And I’m I shouldn’t have told you like I bring F props, so you should have run. But there was like this this overwhelming response to that. And it was something that I was saying frequently, but like as a throwaway, like, gosh, just go to the bathroom if you have to go to the bathroom. Stop like being worried that you’re gonna upset people if it takes you 30 extra seconds to get into the car because you’re gonna run to the bathroom before you get in the car. Like, stop torturing your your bladder. Sure. And so I was saying it as a total throwaway. Yeah, yeah. Kind of as a joke. I mean, do it. And it became all the time. And it became a thing. And every time I say it during a keynote, the whole room is like, yes. I once had, I said, so now is your moment. Like if you’ve had to pee this whole time and you haven’t gotten up and a woman in the back of the room, and she ran out of the back of the room. We laughed so hard. But it’s so real. It’s just like, can we as we get so much closer into the world of AI and we have robotics and we have all these things coming in, we’ve got to just stay connected to the fact that we are humans and we have human needs, and that’s that’s okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:55

Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So we talked about your book a little bit. Yeah. But tell tell us when it’s dropping and where can our viewers and listeners find it? Because I bet after our conversation, a lot of people are excited about it and they want to learn more.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:14

So you can find mismatch at katunavin.com/slash mismatch. That’s the easiest place to find it. And from that page, you will get linked to anywhere that you are would like to purchase the book. Indie bookstores, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, whatever you want. Wonderful. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:29

Any parting words for our audience?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:33

Burnout is never your fault. And mismatch is inherently neutral. If we can pull away some of this shame, blame, guilt, judgment, finger pointing energy that we’re bringing into this situation, we all get out of it faster and better, and we do it together instead of alone.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:56

Beautifully put. Yes, you don’t have to do it alone.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:59

No, you shouldn’t.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:00

No. No, that’s not what it’s about. No. You should be aware of where it’s coming from for you. But this is a community effort. We are all in this together, and we can all make it better together. Yes. Thank you, Kate. Thank you so much. I loved this conversation because again, there were so many golden nuggets. I’m actually gonna be taking notes when I’m editing this podcast. So thanks for coming on the 925 Wellness podcast and for sharing all of this goodness with our audience members. And for you guys who are watching our interview andor listening to us, thank you so much for joining us today. And please check out the book Mismatch. It’s coming out October 27th. By the time this podcast interview goes live, it will be like two weeks out. So keep an eye out for that. Thanks for listening to us today.